Bitcoin Cloud Mining HashBitpro

Transcript of discussion between an ASIC designer and several proof-of-work designers from #monero-pow channel on Freenode this morning

[08:07:01] lukminer contains precompiled cn/r math sequences for some blocks: https://lukminer.org/2019/03/09/oh-kay-v4r-here-we-come/
[08:07:11] try that with RandomX :P
[08:09:00] tevador: are you ready for some RandomX feedback? it looks like the CNv4 is slowly stabilizing, hashrate comes down...
[08:09:07] how does it even make sense to precompile it?
[08:09:14] mine 1% faster for 2 minutes?
[08:09:35] naturally we think the entire asic-resistance strategy is doomed to fail :) but that's a high-level thing, who knows. people may think it's great.
[08:09:49] about RandomX: looks like the cache size was chosen to make it GPU-hard
[08:09:56] looking forward to more docs
[08:11:38] after initial skimming, I would think it's possible to make a 10x asic for RandomX. But at least for us, we will only make an ASIC if there is not a total ASIC hostility there in the first place. That's better for the secret miners then.
[08:13:12] What I propose is this: we are working on an Ethash ASIC right now, and once we have that working, we would invite tevador or whoever wants to come to HK/Shenzhen and we walk you guys through how we would make a RandomX ASIC. You can then process this input in any way you like. Something like that.
[08:13:49] unless asics (or other accelerators) re-emerge on XMR faster than expected, it looks like there is a little bit of time before RandomX rollout
[08:14:22] 10x in what measure? $/hash or watt/hash?
[08:14:46] watt/hash
[08:15:19] so you can make 10 times more efficient double precisio FPU?
[08:16:02] like I said let's try to be productive. You are having me here, let's work together!
[08:16:15] continue with RandomX, publish more docs. that's always helpful.
[08:16:37] I'm trying to understand how it's possible at all. Why AMD/Intel are so inefficient at running FP calculations?
[08:18:05] midipoet ([email protected]/web/irccloud.com/x-vszshqqxwybvtsjm) has joined #monero-pow
[08:18:17] hardware development works the other way round. We start with 1) math then 2) optimization priority 3) hw/sw boundary 4) IP selection 5) physical implementation
[08:22:32] This still doesn't explain at which point you get 10x
[08:23:07] Weren't you the ones claiming "We can accelerate ProgPoW by a factor of 3x to 8x." ? I find it hard to believe too.
[08:30:20] sure
[08:30:26] so my idea: first we finish our current chip
[08:30:35] from simulation to silicon :)
[08:30:40] we love this stuff... we do it anyway
[08:30:59] now we have a communication channel, and we don't call each other names immediately anymore: big progress!
[08:31:06] you know, we russians have a saying "it was smooth on paper, but they forgot about ravines"
[08:31:12] So I need a bit more details
[08:31:16] ha ha. good!
[08:31:31] that's why I want to avoid to just make claims
[08:31:34] let's work
[08:31:40] RandomX comes in Sep/Oct, right?
[08:31:45] Maybe
[08:32:20] We need to audit it first
[08:32:31] ok
[08:32:59] we don't make chips to prove sw devs that their assumptions about hardware are wrong. especially not if these guys then promptly hardfork and move to the next wrong assumption :)
[08:33:10] from the outside, this only means that hw & sw are devaluing each other
[08:33:24] neither of us should do this
[08:33:47] we are making chips that can hopefully accelerate more crypto ops in the future
[08:33:52] signing, verifying, proving, etc.
[08:34:02] PoW is just a feature like others
[08:34:18] sech1: is it easy for you to come to Hong Kong? (visa-wise)
[08:34:20] or difficult?
[08:34:33] or are you there sometimes?
[08:34:41] It's kind of far away
[08:35:13] we are looking forward to more RandomX docs. that's the first step.
[08:35:31] I want to avoid that we have some meme "Linzhi says they can accelerate XYZ by factor x" .... "ha ha ha"
[08:35:37] right? we don't want that :)
[08:35:39] doc is almost finished
[08:35:40] What docs do you need? It's described pretty good
[08:35:41] so I better say nothing now
[08:35:50] we focus on our Ethash chip
[08:36:05] then based on that, we are happy to walk interested people through the design and what else it can do
[08:36:22] that's a better approach from my view than making claims that are laughed away (rightfully so, because no silicon...)
[08:36:37] ethash ASIC is basically a glorified memory controller
[08:36:39] sech1: tevador said something more is coming (he just did it again)
[08:37:03] yes, some parts of RandomX are not described well
[08:37:10] like dataset access logic
[08:37:37] RandomX looks like progpow for CPU
[08:37:54] yes
[08:38:03] it is designed to reflect CPU
[08:38:34] so any ASIC for it = CPU in essence
[08:39:04] of course there are still some things in regular CPU that can be thrown away for RandomX
[08:40:20] uncore parts are not used, but those will use very little power
[08:40:37] except for memory controller
[08:41:09] I'm just surprised sometimes, ok? let me ask: have you designed or taped out an asic before? isn't it risky to make assumptions about things that are largely unknown?
[08:41:23] I would worry
[08:41:31] that I get something wrong...
[08:41:44] but I also worry like crazy that CNv4 will blow up, where you guys seem to be relaxed
[08:42:06] I didn't want to bring up anything RandomX because CNv4 is such a nailbiter... :)
[08:42:15] how do you guys know you don't have asics in a week or two?
[08:42:38] we don't have experience with ASIC design, but RandomX is simply designed to exactly fit CPU capabilities, which is the best you can do anyways
[08:43:09] similar as ProgPoW did with GPUs
[08:43:14] some people say they want to do asic-resistance only until the vast majority of coins has been issued
[08:43:21] that's at least reasonable
[08:43:43] yeah but progpow totally will not work as advertised :)
[08:44:08] yeah, I've seen that comment about progpow a few times already
[08:44:11] which is no surprise if you know it's just a random sales story to sell a few more GPUs
[08:44:13] RandomX is not permanent, we are expecting to switch to ASIC friendly in a few years if possible
[08:44:18] yes
[08:44:21] that makes sense
[08:44:40] linzhi-sonia: how so? will it break or will it be asic-able with decent performance gains?
[08:44:41] are you happy with CNv4 so far?
[08:45:10] ah, long story. progpow is a masterpiece of deception, let's not get into it here.
[08:45:21] if you know chip marketing it makes more sense
[08:45:24] linzhi-sonia: So far? lol! a bit early to tell, don't you think?
[08:45:35] the diff is coming down
[08:45:41] first few hours looked scary
[08:45:43] I remain skeptical: I only see ASICs being reasonable if they are already as ubiquitous as smartphones
[08:45:46] yes, so far so good
[08:46:01] we kbew the diff would not come down ubtil affter block 75
[08:46:10] yes
[08:46:22] but first few hours it looks like only 5% hashrate left
[08:46:27] looked
[08:46:29] now it's better
[08:46:51] the next worry is: when will "unexplainable" hashrate come back?
[08:47:00] you hope 2-3 months? more?
[08:47:05] so give it another couple of days. will probably overshoot to the downside, and then rise a bit as miners get updated and return
[08:47:22] 3 months minimum turnaround, yes
[08:47:28] nah
[08:47:36] don't underestimate asicmakers :)
[08:47:54] you guys don't get #1 priority on chip fabs
[08:47:56] 3 months = 90 days. do you know what is happening in those 90 days exactly? I'm pretty sure you don't. same thing as before.
[08:48:13] we don't do any secret chips btw
[08:48:21] 3 months assumes they had a complete design ready to go, and added the last minute change in 1 day
[08:48:24] do you know who is behind the hashrate that is now bricked?
[08:48:27] innosilicon?
[08:48:34] hyc: no no, and no. :)
[08:48:44] hyc: have you designed or taped out a chip before?
[08:48:51] yes, many years ago
[08:49:10] then you should know that 90 days is not a fixed number
[08:49:35] sure, but like I said, other makers have greater demand
[08:49:35] especially not if you can prepare, if you just have to modify something, or you have more programmability in the chip than some people assume
[08:50:07] we are chipmakers, we would never dare to do what you guys are doing with CNv4 :) but maybe that just means you are cooler!
[08:50:07] and yes, programmability makes some aspect of turnaround easier
[08:50:10] all fine
[08:50:10] I hope it works!
[08:50:28] do you know who is behind the hashrate that is now bricked?
[08:50:29] inno?
[08:50:41] we suspect so, but have no evidence
[08:50:44] maybe we can try to find them, but we cannot spend too much time on this
[08:50:53] it's probably not so much of a secret
[08:51:01] why should it be, right?
[08:51:10] devs want this cat-and-mouse game? devs get it...
[08:51:35] there was one leak saying it's innosilicon
[08:51:36] so you think 3 months, ok
[08:51:43] inno is cool
[08:51:46] good team
[08:51:49] IP design house
[08:51:54] in Wuhan
[08:52:06] they send their people to conferences with fake biz cards :)
[08:52:19] pretending to be other companies?
[08:52:26] sure
[08:52:28] ha ha
[08:52:39] so when we see them, we look at whatever card they carry and laugh :)
[08:52:52] they are perfectly suited for secret mining games
[08:52:59] they made at most $6 million in 2 months of mining, so I wonder if it was worth it
[08:53:10] yeah. no way to know
[08:53:15] but it's good that you calculate!
[08:53:24] this is all about cost/benefit
[08:53:25] then you also understand - imagine the value of XMR goes up 5x, 10x
[08:53:34] that whole "asic resistance" thing will come down like a house of cards
[08:53:41] I would imagine they sell immediately
[08:53:53] the investor may fully understand the risk
[08:53:57] the buyer
[08:54:13] it's not healthy, but that's another discussion
[08:54:23] so mid-June
[08:54:27] let's see
[08:54:49] I would be susprised if CNv4 ASICs show up at all
[08:54:56] surprised*
[08:54:56] why?
[08:55:05] is only an economic question
[08:55:12] yeah should be interesting. FPGAs will be near their limits as well
[08:55:16] unless XMR goes up a lot
[08:55:19] no, not *only*. it's also a technology question
[08:55:44] you believe CNv4 is "asic resistant"? which feature?
[08:55:53] it's not
[08:55:59] cnv4 = Rabdomx ?
[08:56:03] no
[08:56:07] cnv4=cryptinight/r
[08:56:11] ah
[08:56:18] CNv4 is the one we have now, I think
[08:56:21] since yesterday
[08:56:30] it's plenty enough resistant for current XMR price
[08:56:45] that may be, yes!
[08:56:55] I look at daily payouts. XMR = ca. 100k USD / day
[08:57:03] it can hold until October, but it's not asic resistant
[08:57:23] well, last 24h only 22,442 USD :)
[08:57:32] I think 80 h/s per watt ASICs are possible for CNv4
[08:57:38] linzhi-sonia where do you produce your chips? TSMC?
[08:57:44] I'm cruious how you would expect to build a randomX ASIC that outperforms ARM cores for efficiency, or Intel cores for raw speed
[08:57:48] curious
[08:58:01] yes, tsmc
[08:58:21] Our team did the world's first bitcoin asic, Avalon
[08:58:25] and upcoming 2nd gen Ryzens (64-core EPYC) will be a blast at RandomX
[08:58:28] designed and manufactured
[08:58:53] still being marketed?
[08:59:03] linzhi-sonia: do you understand what xmr wants to achieve, community-wise?
[08:59:14] Avalon? as part of Canaan Creative, yes I think so.
[08:59:25] there's not much interesting oing on in SHA256
[08:59:29] Inge-: I would think so, but please speak
[08:59:32] hyc: yes
[09:00:28] linzhi-sonia: i am curious to hear your thoughts. I am fairly new to this space myself...
[09:00:51] oh
[09:00:56] we are grandpas, and grandmas
[09:01:36] yet I have no problem understanding why ASICS are currently reviled.
[09:01:48] xmr's main differentiators to, let's say btc, are anonymity and fungibility
[09:01:58] I find the client terribly slow btw
[09:02:21] and I think the asic-forking since last may is wrong, doesn't create value and doesn't help with the project objectives
[09:02:25] which "the client" ?
[09:02:52] Monero GUI client maybe
[09:03:12] MacOS, yes
[09:03:28] What exactly is slow?
[09:03:30] linzhi-sonia: I run my own node, and use the CLI and Monerujo. Have not had issues.
[09:03:49] staying in sync
[09:03:49] linzhi-sonia: decentralization is also a key principle
[09:03:56] one that Bitcoin has failed to maintain
[09:04:39] hmm
[09:05:00] looks fairly decentralized to me. decentralization is the result of 3 goals imo: resilient, trustless, permissionless
[09:05:28] don't ask a hardware maker about physical decentralization. that's too ideological. we focus on logical decentralization.
[09:06:11] physical decentralization is important. with bulk of bitnoin mining centered on Chinese hydroelectric dams
[09:06:19] have you thought about including block data in the PoW?
[09:06:41] yes, of course.
[09:07:39] is that already in an algo?
[09:08:10] hyc: about "centered on chinese hydro" - what is your source? the best paper I know is this: https://coinshares.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Mining-Whitepaper-Final.pdf
[09:09:01] linzhi-sonia: do you mine on your ASICs before you sell them?
[09:09:13] besides testing of course
[09:09:45] that paper puts Chinese btc miners at 60% max
[09:10:05] tevador: I think everybody learned that that is not healthy long-term!
[09:10:16] because it gives the chipmaker a cost advantage over its own customers
[09:10:33] and cost advantage leads to centralization (physical and logical)
[09:10:51] you guys should know who finances progpow and why :)
[09:11:05] but let's not get into this, ha ha. want to keep the channel civilized. right OhGodAGirl ? :)
[09:11:34] tevador: so the answer is no! 100% and definitely no
[09:11:54] that "self-mining" disease was one of the problems we have now with asics, and their bad reputation (rightfully so)
[09:13:08] I plan to write a nice short 2-page paper or so on our chip design process. maybe it's interesting to some people here.
[09:13:15] basically the 5 steps I mentioned before, from math to physical
[09:13:32] linzhi-sonia: the paper you linked puts 48% of bitcoin mining in Sichuan. the total in China is much more than 60%
[09:13:38] need to run it by a few people to fix bugs, will post it here when published
[09:14:06] hyc: ok! I am just sharing the "best" document I know today. it definitely may be wrong and there may be a better one now.
[09:14:18] hyc: if you see some reports, please share
[09:14:51] hey I am really curious about this: where is a PoW algo that puts block data into the PoW?
[09:15:02] the previous paper I read is from here http://hackingdistributed.com/2018/01/15/decentralization-bitcoin-ethereum/
[09:15:38] hyc: you said that already exists? (block data in PoW)
[09:15:45] it would make verification harder
[09:15:49] linzhi-sonia: https://the-eye.eu/public/Books/campdivision.com/PDF/Computers%20General/Privacy/bitcoin/meh/hashimoto.pdf
[09:15:51] but for chips it would be interesting
[09:15:52] we discussed the possibility about a year ago https://www.reddit.com/Monero/comments/8bshrx/what_we_need_to_know_about_proof_of_work_pow/
[09:16:05] oh good links! thanks! need to read...
[09:16:06] I think that paper by dryja was original
[09:17:53] since we have a nice flow - second question I'm very curious about: has anyone thought about in-protocol rewards for other functions?
[09:18:55] we've discussed micropayments for wallets to use remote nodes
[09:18:55] you know there is a lot of work in other coins about STARK provers, zero-knowledge, etc. many of those things very compute intense, or need to be outsourced to a service (zether). For chipmakers, in-protocol rewards create an economic incentive to accelerate those things.
[09:19:50] whenever there is an in-protocol reward, you may get the power of ASICs doing something you actually want to happen
[09:19:52] it would be nice if there was some economic reward for running a fullnode, but no one has come up with much more than that afaik
[09:19:54] instead of fighting them off
[09:20:29] you need to use asics, not fight them. that's an obvious thing to say for an asicmaker...
[09:20:41] in-protocol rewards can be very powerful
[09:20:50] like I said before - unless the ASICs are so useful they're embedded in every smartphone, I dont see them being a positive for decentralization
[09:21:17] if they're a separate product, the average consumer is not going to buy them
[09:21:20] now I was talking about speedup of verifying, signing, proving, etc.
[09:21:23] they won't even know what they are
[09:22:07] if anybody wants to talk about or design in-protocol rewards, please come talk to us
[09:22:08] the average consumer also doesn't use general purpose hardware to secure blockchains either
[09:22:14] not just for PoW, in fact *NOT* for PoW
[09:22:32] it requires sw/hw co-design
[09:23:10] we are in long-term discussions/collaboration over this with Ethereum, Bitcoin Cash. just talk right now.
[09:23:16] this was recently published though suggesting more uptake though I guess https://btcmanager.com/college-students-are-the-second-biggest-miners-of-cryptocurrency/
[09:23:29] I find it pretty hard to believe their numbers
[09:24:03] well
[09:24:09] sorry, original article: https://www.pcmag.com/news/366952/college-kids-are-using-campus-electricity-to-mine-crypto
[09:24:11] just talk, no? rumors
[09:24:18] college students are already more educated than the average consumer
[09:24:29] we are not seeing many such customers anymore
[09:24:30] it's data from cisco monitoring network traffic
[09:24:33] and they're always looking for free money
[09:24:48] of course anyone with "free" electricity is inclined to do it
[09:24:57] but look at the rates, cannot make much money
[09:26:06] Ethereum is a bloated collection of bugs wrapped in a UI. I suppose they need all the help they can get
[09:26:29] Bitcoin Cash ... just another get rich quick scheme
[09:26:38] hmm :)
[09:26:51] I'll give it back to you, ok? ha ha. arrogance comes before the fall...
[09:27:17] maye we should have a little fun with CNv4 mining :)
[09:27:25] ;)
[09:27:38] come on. anyone who has watched their track record... $75M lost in ETH at DAO hack
[09:27:50] every smart contract that comes along is just waiting for another hack
[09:27:58] I just wanted to throw out the "in-protocol reward" thing, maybe someone sees the idea and wants to cowork. maybe not. maybe it's a stupid idea.
[09:29:18] linzhi-sonia: any thoughts on CN-GPU?
[09:29:55] CN-GPU has one positive aspect - it wastes chip area to implement all 18 hash algorithms
[09:30:19] you will always hear roughly the same feedback from me:
[09:30:52] "This algorithm very different, it heavy use floating point operations to hurt FPGAs and general purpose CPUs"
[09:30:56] the problem is, if it's profitable for people to buy ASIC miners and mine, it's always more profitable for the manufacturer to not sell and mine themselves
[09:31:02] "hurt"
[09:31:07] what is the point of this?
[09:31:15] it totally doesn't work
[09:31:24] you are hurting noone, just demonstrating lack of ability to think
[09:31:41] what is better: algo designed for chip, or chip designed for algo?
[09:31:43] fireice does it on daily basis, CN-GPU is a joke
[09:31:53] tevador: that's not really true, especially in a market with such large price fluctuations as cryptocurrency
[09:32:12] it's far less risky to sell miners than mine with them and pray that price doesn't crash for next six months
[09:32:14] I think it's great that crypto has a nice group of asicmakers now, hw & sw will cowork well
[09:32:36] jwinterm yes, that's why they premine them and sell after
[09:32:41] PoW is about being thermodynamically and cryptographically provable
[09:32:45] premining with them is taking on that risk
[09:32:49] not "fork when we think there are asics"
[09:32:51] business is about risk minimization
[09:32:54] that's just fear-driven
[09:33:05] Inge-: that's roughly the feedback
[09:33:24] I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I think it's not so simple as saying "it always happens"
[09:34:00] jwinterm: it has certainly happened on BTC. and also on XMR.
[09:34:19] ironically, please think about it: these kinds of algos indeed prove the limits of the chips they were designed for. but they don't prove that you cannot implement the same algo differently! cannot!
[09:34:26] Risk minimization is not starting a business at all.
[09:34:34] proof-of-gpu-limit. proof-of-cpu-limit.
[09:34:37] imagine you have a money printing machine, would you sell it?
[09:34:39] proves nothing for an ASIC :)
[09:35:05] linzhi-sonia: thanks. I dont think anyone believes you can't make a more efficient cn-gpu asic than a gpu - but that it would not be orders of magnitude faster...
[09:35:24] ok
[09:35:44] like I say. these algos are, that's really ironic, designed to prove the limitatios of a particular chip in mind of the designer
[09:35:50] exactly the wrong way round :)
[09:36:16] like the cache size in RandomX :)
[09:36:18] beautiful
[09:36:29] someone looked at GPU designs
[09:37:31] linzhi-sonia can you elaborate? Cache size in RandomX was selected to fit CPU cache
[09:37:52] yes
[09:38:03] too large for GPU
[09:38:11] as I said, we are designing the algorithm to exactly fit CPU capabilities, I do not claim an ASIC cannot be more efficient
[09:38:16] ok!
[09:38:29] when will you do the audit?
[09:38:35] will the results be published in a document or so?
[09:38:37] I claim that single-chip ASIC is not viable, though
[09:39:06] you guys are brave, noone disputes that. 3 anti-asic hardforks now!
[09:39:18] 4th one coming
[09:39:31] 3 forks were done not only for this
[09:39:38] they had scheduled updates in the first place
[09:48:10] Monero is the #1 anti-asic fighter
[09:48:25] Monero is #1 for a lot of reasons ;)
[09:48:40] It's the coin with the most hycs.
[09:48:55] mooooo
[09:59:06] sneaky integer overflow, bug squished
[10:38:00] p0nziph0ne ([email protected]/vpn/privateinternetaccess/p0nziph0ne) has joined #monero-pow
[11:10:53] The convo here is wild
[11:12:29] it's like geo-politics at the intersection of software and hardware manufacturing for thermoeconomic value.
[11:13:05] ..and on a Sunday.
[11:15:43] midipoet: hw and sw should work together and stop silly games to devalue each other. to outsiders this is totally not attractive.
[11:16:07] I appreciate the positive energy here to try to listen, learn, understand.
[11:16:10] that's a start
[11:16:48] <-- p0nziph0ne ([email protected]/vpn/privateinternetaccess/p0nziph0ne) has quit (Quit: Leaving)
[11:16:54] we won't do silly mining against xmr "community" wishes, but not because we couldn'd do it, but because it's the wrong direction in the long run, for both sides
[11:18:57] linzhi-sonia: I agree to some extent. Though, in reality, there will always be divergence between social worlds. Not every body has the same vision of the future. Reaching societal consensus on reality tomorrow is not always easy
[11:20:25] absolutely. especially at a time when there is so much profit to be made from divisiveness.
[11:20:37] someone will want to make that profit, for sure
[11:24:32] Yes. Money distorts.
[11:24:47] Or wealth...one of the two
[11:26:35] Too much physical money will distort rays of light passing close to it indeed.
submitted by jwinterm to Monero [link] [comments]

I am stepping down as a moderator of r/btc and exiting the bitcoin community and entering the Ethereum community.

I am stepping down as a moderator of btc and exiting the bitcoin community. Thank you all for fighting until the end. I know I am going to get a lot of hate from pretty much everyone for this post, but I felt the need to post it anyway.

Why Give Up?

I think bitcoin is past the point of no return. There are a number of different routes that bitcoin could take this year, and as far as I can see, they all end up at the same destination; failure. I know I am going to get a lot of flack for this post, and I understand that. I have witnessed bitcoin being announced “dead” many many times throughout its history and I absolutely could be wrong, but almost every one of their predictions were based on a lack of understanding of bitcoin. I don’t feel my prediction is has a lack of understanding. If I am wrong, then I feel it will be through sheer luck that bitcoin survives. I was a bitcoin early adopter in 2011 and have invested far more time into bitcoin than is reasonable. I truly hope bitcoin does survive, but what I think will happen is not predicated on what I want to happen.

How might bitcoin fall?

The Past

I am not going to go through everything that has lead us up to this point. Many of your are well aware of what has brought us here. Bitcoin up until the beginning of 2014 was an unparalleled success. For those of you who weren’t around at the time, there was a huge amount of excitement in the community at all times. It felt like every month there was some announcement that had a positive impact on bitcoin. A new major company offering bitcoin payments, a bitcoin company offering a new service, a new piece of software being added to clients to make them more useful. Bitcoin was making continual progress and the community was unified. Compare the situation back then to day. We have now had 2 years of stagnation, and in many cases degradation of the network.

The Present

The network is now slow and expensive (and getting slower and more expensive), companies have been leaving bitcoin at an exponential rate. No new major companies have adopted bitcoin and there are no signs of this changing in the future. The community is irreparably divided and is at war with itself. Development has stalled.
Where bitcoin has stalled, other cryptocurrencies have been making enormous ground. Bitcoin does not exist in a vacuum. It has competition. Other cryptocurrencies already offer significantly more advance features than bitcoin. The only thing bitcoin has left over other cryptocurrencies is it’s network effect. The inertia of network effect is truly enormous. Bitcoin has been coasting on it for 2 years now. Technology develops rapidly though, and many people are always looking for the next big thing. Investors want to make money and developers want to work on the most advance and growing technology. There has been very little investment into new bitcoin specific companies over the past 2 years. The only new bitcoin company I know of that has received significant investment in the past two years is Blockstream. There has been a very large amount of investment into blockchain companies in general though. The money is there, it’s just not going into bitcoin.
Ethereum has now reached close to 1/3 of bitcoin’s market cap and there is no sign that it is going to let up any time soon. The ethereum community is a breath of fresh air compared to the current bitcoin community and it feels very nostalgic there. It feels very much like the bitcoin community did 3-4 years ago. They have showed that they are not afraid of using hard forks to upgrade the protocol. They have a leader who is intelligent, pragmatic and good at communicating and IMO who is likely to get the network through the early volatile years. The community showed that they value pragmatism and reality over ideology when they stopped a theft of a large percentage of the currency supply and did so without having any adverse affects on anyone other than the thief. They also achieved this while under attack from bitcoin. They have been working with major organisations and companies to promote and forward the use of the network and they listen to the users of the network to find out what problems they have and which features they want, and then work towards satisfying the needs of their users. The developers of the network have known large holdings of the currency, which means conflicts of interest are less likely to arise and protocol development can directly correlate increased returns for the developer’s investment.

The Future

There are a number of possibilities, but I believe all end with very similar outcomes.

Scenario 1 - BU/EC gains 75% of the network hash rate

If BU gains 75% of the network hash rate, a hard fork will become likely (although not certain). Core and their supporters will start to try and burn down the network. All communication channels will overflow with FUD (some real, some fake). Core supporters with large bitcoin holdings will start dumping them on the market in ways that will cause the most damage to price. Core will start recommending at the very minimum a difficulty readjustment and quite likely also a POW change. Price will fall extremely far as speculators adjust their risk exposure and wait out the storm, traders will short the market to make as much money as possible during the fall, and core supporters try to get the BTC price to go as low as possible on the BU/EC side of the fork and BU/EC supporters try to get the price to BCC price to go as low as possible. Whatever the price is before the fork is certain, I think it is likely to reach 50% of that between the time a fork becomes certain and when the fork actually happens. After the fork happens the price could go down to literally any level. While this is happening, the Ethereum market cap is going to overtake bitcoin even if the Ethereum price does not increase (which it will). Bitcoin will not survive this. The moment Ethereum overtakes bitcoin as the biggest cryptocurrency, everyone will find out. It will be posted in articles in every technology news website on the internet. Once the casual bitcoin holders/users find out (hint most do not even pay attention to what is going on in bitcoin) they will quickly panic and either sell to fiat, or sell into Ethereum to speculate. Mining will almost instantly become unprofitable at that point. Monumentally unprofitable in fact. The payout of 12.5 per block will not even slightly cover the cost of electricity and because miners have no direct control over the price of bitcoin they will be absolutely powerless to do anything other than mine at a loss for a very long period of time. If bitcoin price drops to $100, which IMO is very conservative, then it is likely that 90% of the miners will have to turn their hardware off. This means that the difficulty adjustment periods will increase by a factor of 10 to 20 weeks. These miners that are left will need to mine at a huge loss for up to 20 weeks, or hope that somehow the price recovers. I don’t think even the biggest miners could survive that. Further difficulty reset hard forks will be proposed and it will be chaos.
While all of this is happening, Ethereum is likely to be running fine and price will likely be rising significantly as money from bitcoin pours into it.

Scenario 2 - BU/EC never gains 75% of the network hash rate

In this scenario there will be absolutely stalemate. Core will not be able to implement Segwit and therefore will not be able to change bitcoin into a settlement network, but also the transaction throughput will not be increased through larger blocks. The debate will have become so vitriolic that no further progress can be made within bitcoin. Bitcoin simply will not scale on OR off-chain. In this scenario the end is not so violent like in scenario 1 but then end result is the same. Ethereum (and other cryptocurrencies in general) will continue to gain market share throughout the year as Bitcoin remains stuck in stalemate. The bitcoin price continues decreasing and the Ethereum price keeps on increasing until Ethereum overtakes bitcoin. Once the flip happens, it will accelerate significantly as people realise what is happening. The end result is the same as the later part of scenario 1.

Scenario 3 - BU/EC lose most/all of the network hash rate

In this scenario Core manages to get Segwit accepted by the network. Most people in btc simply leave bitcoin for good. Fees will remain high and transaction throughput low. Core will not increase the block size limit until after LN has been proven to work and users have been forced/coerced into using it. LN is not anywhere near ready for production and it is likely to take at least 2 more years until it is released and working and another year or two until it is fully implemented into wallets, and then another year until businesses are able to understand and use it in their backend. I.e. in an ideal world where everything works as intended in this theoretical system it will take 4-5 years until bitcoin has similar properties to what it had 2 years ago. This obviously ignores the fact that there has been no analysis on whether this would even work on an economic level, let alone a technological level.
As transaction fees rise users and business will be pushed into using other cryptocurrencies and fiat and at some point bitcoin’s network effect will be overcome by Ethereum’s. This scenario is essentially the same as scenario 3, but there maybe some initial price pump when Segwit activates and people enjoy and end to the debate. This will likely be short lived though.

What is most likely to happen (IMO)

If BU/EC is to continue to gain further market share of the hash rate and reach the 75% requirement that many parties have suggested. It is likely to take at least a couple more months of deliberations. For this to happen, a number of large pools will need to switch over. Bitfury has stated that they will not support BU and are mining Segwit and have even started mining UASF blocks. HaoBTC is still sticking to the HK agreement (which literally no one else is) and will not be running anything other than Core. This means it is really down to F2Pool and some of the smaller Pools. F2Pool has stated that it will stop signalling for classic and there is no indication that it will start signalling for anything other than Core (not segwit), and has stated that he thinks BU is dead.
This suggests that the most likely scenario is scenario 2. BU/EC will not activate, but nor will Segwit. There are some things that may or may not happen in this scenario. For example it seems that Core are willing to do a UASF to push Segwit through under the pretence that any of the miners that are not mining Segwit are illegitimate as they are against the “consensus”. This will force the miners into making some kind of decision either way. Many are likely to side with Core but I think a significant portion will side with BU initially. A number of different things could happen in this scenario depending on the ratio of hash power on each side of the split. If the split is mostly equal, I expect that two coins will survive for some amount of time. What happens with bitcoin from that point I have no idea. If BU/EC gains the most hash power then the debate will rage on as the BU/EC will refuse to attack the minority chain out of moral reasons. What happens with bitcoin from that point I have no idea. If Core gains the majority share then the BU minority chain will be attacked by some of the majority miners. Core and their supporters do not have any moral objections against this kind of attack. The minority BU miners will then switch back to Core and it will likely play out like in scenario 3.

So this is BU’s fault for forcing a hard fork?

No, this is Core’s fault by making a hard fork dangerous by telling everyone a hard fork is dangerous for the past two years and blocking every conceivable compromise. They have petrified the bitcoin community and convinced them that any kind of hard fork for any reason that does not come from them is dangerous. They have done this to hold onto the power they should not even have in the first place. They have become the self appointed kings of bitcoin. They have achieved this by threatening to burn down the network instead of making a compromise, and by attacking anyone who threatens to take this power away from them. Unfortunately, when Gavin stepped down, he handed to keys to the bitcoin house to the wolves and once they are inside, it seems it is not possible to get them out again. The only way to make them totally irrelevant is to exit and let them be kings of nothing.

Why did you even become a mod in the first place?

I have known bitcoin was on a negative trajectory for quite some time but I felt that one last push to save it was worth my effort. I wanted to help btc be the best bitcoin subreddit to overcome some of the damage that bitcoin has done to the community. IMO btc is the best bitcoin subreddit, but it is far from perfect. I feel very strongly that the moderation of btc is a microcosm of the situation in the bitcoin community in general. I feel there is far too much weight put on idealogical decision making rather pragmatism and realism. The moderation policies of btc are ‘hands-off’ to a point I think is actually detrimental to the sub and to bitcoin. The issue is that, trolls overwhelm the sub and cause constant controversy. They act like a fire under the community and purposely rile everyone up. There is a reason for this. bitcoin was controlled mostly through censorship. Censorship alone was enough to create an echo chamber. They do not have control of the btc moderation team (well actually they managed to get two mods on here who have since left/been removed) so they must turn it into an echo-chamber by other means. They have achieved this by making sure every single post has comments from trolls that try to rile up the community. This makes the btc community have more tunnel vision as they/we try to insulate ourselves from the trolls. The problem is that it means that the community becomes highly idealogical and focused on only one goal.
IMO it is a failure of this sub to not remove comments from trolls. This is pretty much a standard policy across the whole of reddit and the only reasons for not employing it are idealogical. Removing trolling is not the same as banning specific ideas or topics being genuinely discussed. Not doing so just makes btc a frustrating place to try and discuss things. It also means that any actual discussions outside the block size debate get very little traction as everyone gets dragged into the angry posts.
I should be clear though, the other mods of this sub are great and absolutely want what is best for bitcoin.

Isn’t this all just FUD

I am not writing this to sway anyone. This is what I genuinely think will happen, but of course I could be wrong about every single prediction. It saddens me enormously to write this. The current trajectory for Bitcoin is down and the the trajectory for Ethereum and other cryptocurrencies is up. There will likely be people who say “but Ethereum doesn’t have any uses cases”, my argument to that is; what use-cases does bitcoin have right now that could not immediately be adopted by Ethereum today? There will also be people who say “but if bitcoin dies then all other cryptocurrencies will die with it, because how could anyone trust their money if it might just disappear”? My argument to that is; all cryptocurrencies are still in their infancy, even bitcoin. The writing has been on the wall for Bitcoin for quite some time. I do think there will likely be one ‘great’ cryptocurrency, but until that cryptocurrency is adopted by the masses, that title is still available. If the title of ‘biggest cryptocurrency’ can be taken then it was likely never meant to have it very long anyway. If/When a cryptocurrency manages to achieve mass adoption then it will have hundreds of millions of people, companies, organisations and even countries defending it. At that point the entire system will be working towards it’s success. At that point, the current moral ambivalence towards attacking a minority chain will be seen as ridiculous. After mass adoption of a cryptocurrency (for example Ethereum) has occurred, grandma’s will be writing to their local MP in support of the cyberwar against the Ethereum competitor ‘Othereum’. That is decentralisation. Huge numbers of diverse entities working to defend it. This will never happen on a network as limited as bitcoin’s is. In fact bitcoin is actively losing allies.

TL/DR

I’m out. Ethereum is likely to take over this year as bitcoin becomes myspace. This may happen very rapidly. I hope I am wrong.

Disclosure:

I hold both Bitcoin and Ethereum. I have held a number of different cryptocurrencies over the years, but my holdings were almost always 90-100% bitcoin until recently.
submitted by singularity87 to btc [link] [comments]

Beermoney Essentials: 6 Ways To Earn Passively With Cryptocurrencies In 2018

Hey guys!
This is my second "Beermoney Essentials" post. Here's the first one about Chrome Extensions if you missed it a year ago. These types of posts basically are just about things have seem to become 'essential' information in terms of Beermoney.
This post is going to be about Cryptocurrency. Cryptocurrency has been becoming more and more popular around the beermoney community, and I think it's safe to say that 2018 will be the year of cryptos.
Here's what this post is NOT. This post will not be the 'here's what cryptos I think you should buy and hodl in 2018'. This post IS going to be about cryptos you can get into and do whatever you want to without having to directly invest in them. So yeah, this post is mostly going to be about mining.

6 Ways To Earn Passively With Cryptocurrencies

Alright, so in this post, I'm going to split things up into 4 parts:

Part 1: GPU mining

Does anyone here remember Nice Hash? (I mean, it technically still is a thing actually). Nice Hash is/was a nice site that would allow you to use your PC to mine. I believe they actually mined ETH (I think), but they were nice because they paid out in BTC (which most people prefer). It was really the easy way for just about anyone to get into mining (assuming you have a decent GPU). Just a month or so ago they claim to have been "hacked" and they lost (at the time) ~$60 million in users' bitcoin. For whatever reason a lot of people wanted them to resume operating after the bits were lost, so they are back up. I won't recommend Nicehash at all. I don't think they were really hacked, and I do think it was an inside job. If you want to use Nicehash, you can. I just really don't recommend it, and there are plenty of alternatives. Here are just a few that I found.

WinMiner

WinMiner is a really neat alternative to NiceHash. From what it seems, the payouts on Winminer are a bit lower, but there are a couple advantages to using this site that might outweigh the lower payouts. First of all, Winminer is really easy to use, you can just download it and set it up, and it's all set. The thing about Winminer that is really nice is that you can get paid out in many different ways. If you want, you can cash out to Bitcoin, but they have a $100 minimum, and the fees are really high, so there's a good chance you won't want Bitcoin. Alternatively, you can withdraw your balance to PayPal, ETH, LTC, Amazon, or iTunes. One thing I don't necessarily like about Winminer is that it does keep your balance in USD at all times, so if you earn for a month and go to withdraw if bitcoin's price goes up 50% in that month, you won't get that bonus reflected on your total cashed out because it was in USD. It's probably not an issue for most people.

Kryptex | Nonref

I have been using Kryptex since just after the announcement of NiceHash being hacked. It has a nice UI and it is very customizable with its settings. This is probably the closest site to the original NiceHash. You can request a payout in Bitcoin any time after you have 0.0006 BTC. One thing about Kryptex is that it does have a referral system. You can earn 10% of your referral's earnings. I shamelessly put my referral link above. Feel free to give it a click if you want.
I don't really prefer this site over WinMiner because it doesn't offer quite as many methods of payments, but here it is anyways.

Part 2: CPU Mining

CPU Mining for Bitcoin has been dead for a long time, but there are still some ways to use your CPU to earn some crypto passively.

LoadTeam

LoadTeam used to be a site that would pay you to test loading websites in the background passively. It was never a lot of money (and it still isn't), but they made the change a few months ago to switch over to Crypto Mining. I actually didn't even notice the switch, but I checked my account after a couple months and I had a few dollars sitting there. LoadTeam offers instant paypal transfers with no fee for all balances over $1. It's pretty nice. I didn't even notice a difference in CPU usage over the last few months. I think of it as an easy couple dollars a month, and it runs entirely in the background.

CoinHive Monero Mining

You might have seen this around a bit. CoinHive is a service that allows sites to mine monero in the background(ish). Some sites have been using Coinhive as an alternate to advertising/adblockers. There are a few sites that have been adding coinhive to their site. You can run this passively in the background.
I don't know all of the sites that have CoinHive, but two big ones I know of are FreeBitco.in and CoinPot.
FYI, I think Freebitco.in links are blocked on reddit, but if anyone wants my referral link, send me a PM. I give 100% of my referral earnings back to my referrals.

Part 3: PoC Mining

Burstcoin Mining

PoC Mining you might not have heard of, but it's fucking cool. PoC = Proof of Capacity. While CPU mining uses a computer's CPU, and GPU mining uses graphics cards, PoC mining uses free storage to mine. The appeal of PoC mining is that it seems like everybody has free storage. Check around your house, maybe you'll find a nice external hard drive with some space on it. You can use this to mine from.
Now I know I said above that this wasn't going to be a post of me telling you what cryptos I recommend for you to invest in, but here's my quick pitch for Burstcoin. Burstcoin is the worlds first (and only) PoC coin. It is the "green" crypto. Mining Burstcoin takes up 400x less power than a crypto like Bitcoin. It's really pretty fucking cool, and I absolutely support the coin. Feel free to read more about Burstcoin on /burstcoin, and check out the recent announcement of Dymaxion.
But you're here to learn how to earn from PoC Mining passively.
Unlike CPU and GPU mining, it is a lot more hard to get into because there are a lot more steps involved to setting it up. You'll actually need to know how to 'plot' your storage and set up a mining pool.
I'm not going to write out the entire process because there are plenty of other resources to help you out.
One thing I really recommend is QBundle 1.6, which is probably the closest thing that will walk you through the process of setting up a wallet for burst and start plotting and then mining with your storage.
One thing I'll also point out is that in order to mine burst with a pool you will need at least one burst in order to set the reward recipient. There are faucets you can get a free burst from, but if you can't get the faucets to work, feel free to send me a PM and I'll send over everyone who wants to get into burst a coin to set the recipient.
Here's a video explaining burstcoin a bit more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyj9RIyxLb4
If there are requests, I will happily make a video explaining how to get started mining with Burstcoin.

Part 4: Saving/Investing

Okay, I said this post wasn't about investing in cryptos, and that's not what this section is about, at all.
This part of the post is about using the cryptos you already have to earn more crypto. There are quite a few options in this space, but I do advise you to take all caution when investing your cryptos into anything. Realize that ANYTHING can become a scam when you're not holding your own private keys.

FreeBitco.in

I've mentioned this a few times in the past, but Freebitco.in allows you to use their site has a savings account/wallet and they pay 4.08% annual compounded interest per year on all your balances held (they pay interest daily). I've been hodling bitcoin on there on and off for quite a long while now and it's really nice. Another advantage I could point out is that their site does work as a wallet as well, and while bitcoin's fees are going crazy, you have the option of setting up an automatic weekly cash out (when you're ready to cash out your balance on their site) and the fee is just 3000 satoshi, or you can sign up for a 1-6 hour payment with a heavily reduced fee, or instant with a full average fee. It's really nice having those options.
Freebitco.in does offer a 25% referral bonus for all interest paid out on their site, and I wrote above:
FYI, I think Freebitco.in links are blocked on reddit, but if anyone wants my referral link, send me a PM. I give 100% of my referral earnings back to my referrals.
I have been paying 100% back for over a year now, and I don't plan on changing that.
Please remember: if you do deposit anything onto freebitco.in that is a risk you're taking.

Conclusion

There are a lot of different ways you can use Cryptocurrencies to your benefit. Even if you don't have a good CPU, GPU, or have much free storage, there are still options for you, and maybe you could even consider taking some of your profits from beermoney in 2018 and putting it into upgrading your own set up, or taking some profits and investing into the cryptos you support.
Previous Beermoney Essentials Posts:
Feeling like sending some cryptobits? Feel free:
BTC: 16quTAkbE5sj7doXcPgGBoUemQgdcQRv84
BCH: 1bHj58bVAAPt4wd6SNUbPxBLP6xHFXc5t
ETH: 0x95F33586adb84EE4568C9556a24b340E5eD51604
LTC: LMvtC4Ltaghyb5k5Ssh1sFn9qnqsHfcTpV
XMR: 42B8knrqLAE2BMbiWtqTcrc1W9mNy2PxdVW32oZaBNAJNjDHMWwMJkCFhHWd3aPczi4gYTon73dqX3iv1GK2tUQKJDC2pWV
BURST: BURST-L3AD-N8MX-BVJD-BW54B
submitted by Fishering to beermoney [link] [comments]

Proof of Stake leads to centralization, with worse consequences than PoW

Please let me preface this by saying PoS is a technical improvement beyond PoW. It allows the network to use significantly fewer resources in mining. This is good because it doesn't require the energy requirements of a small country to maintain the network.
That said, once it interacts with the real world and economics it is no better than Proof of Work.
Proof of Work is based upon a numbers game of who has the most hashing power while proof of stake is based upon a statistically fair game of whoever has the most crypto. Each nominal unit of coin has equal odds to be picked for its wallet to be the next miner. One stipulation of PoS, however, is that the wallet must be online. To be online, it requires resources (hardware, electricity, and internet connection). Resources have a real world cost. Due to the fact PoS doesn't require you to fight with hashing power, the energy cost and hardware costs don't rise with odds of being chose to mine the next block (the mining lottery).
Because of this, larger stakes, have a cheaper cost to mine than smaller stakes. To illustrate this fact, imagine you have a PC in your house with 1 ETH and your neighbor has an identical PC setup in his house but with 2 ETH. The energy requires to run the two setups are exactly the same and the overhead hardware are the same so the cost to run each of your mining operations is the same. However, your neighbor has 2x odds you do since he has 2x more ETH. Since each block will offer the same mining reward regardless of your stake size, the expected value (odds*payout) for each unit of ETH is the same, you and your neighbor both have the same expected EV. However, because those machines have a cost to run, their profitabilities are different. Your neighbor has 1/2 the cost per unit of production, as you.
Given the fact that the larger stake holder ends up with a larger profit margin, as a rational investor, he would keep more of the mined ETH to increase his production ability. So a larger stake holder would grow his ETH stake faster than a smaller stake holder.
After a point, the cost of being part of the mining operation would be too high relative to the payout for small stake holders and they would rationally drop out of the mining business, taking their wallets offline.
This leads to centralization of mining and the rich get richer, faster.
The alternative would be for smaller stake holders to band together and move all of their wallets to a central service then share all mined ETH and running costs as it would reduce the per unit cost of the operation.
This is called economies of scale. We saw this early on in Bitcoin. The difference with Proof of Stake is that it would require all of the smaller holders to put their stakes in the same location. This creates a vulnerability not only to hacking but to outside jurisdictional force such as regulation, taxation, etc.
So one way or the other, PoS will lead to centralization the same way PoW does due to economies of scale. While it does end up reducing the energy cost to run the backbone of the network to a fraction of what PoW requires, it ends up introducing a significant amount of new risk which cryptos aren't designed to handle (i.e. outside regulation and jurisdictional control).
EDIT: Just to clarify, this isn't an issue of comparing one person with 100 ETH and the guy next door that holds 200 ETH. It's more like the guy holding 100 ETH compared to Staking business next door that's holding 100k or 1M.
The cost difference in operations does end up making a massive difference.
EDIT 2: Thanks to Miffers (below) for the link to the other thread.
So only 250 validators will be allowed (unless the devs can figure out a way to open it up to everyone, later on)
https://www.reddit.com/ethereum/comments/4yuerh/how_will_casper_select_validators_and_avoid/
So yeah, Vitalik and Vlad know PoS is going to lead to centralization and worse, centralized pools. I wonder if they're considering the risk they're exposing from outside forces.
submitted by fuckharvey to ethereum [link] [comments]

Why I just sold 50% of my bitcoins: GHash.IO

tl;dr: GHash.IO shows that the economic incentives behind Bitcoin are probably very flawed, it might take a disaster to get the consensus to fix it, and if that happens I want to make sure I can pay my rent and buy food while we're fixing it.
I made a promise to myself a while back that I'd sell 50% of my bitcoins if a pool hit 50%, and it's happened. I've known for awhile now that the incentives Bitcoin is based on are flawed for many reasons and seeing a 50% pool even with only a few of those reasons mattering is worrying to say the least.
Where do we go from here? We need to do three things:
1) Eliminate pools.
2) Provide a way for miners to solo-mine with low varience and frequent mining payouts even with only small amounts of hashing power.
3) Get rid of ASICs.
Unfortunately #3 is probably impossible - there is no known way to make a PoW algorithm where an ASIC implementation isn't significantly less expensive on a marginal cost basis than an implementation on commodity hardware. Every way people have tried has the perverse effect of increasing the cost to make the first ASIC, which just further centralizes mining. Absent new ideas - ideas that will be from hardware engineers, not programmers - SHA256² is probably the best of many bad choices. (and no, PoS still stands for something other than 'stake')
We are however lucky that we have physics and (maybe) international relations on our side. It will always be cheaper to run a small amount of hashing power than a large amount, at least for some value of 'small' and 'large'. It's the cube-square law, as applied to heat dissipation: a small amount of mining equipment has a much larger surface area compared to a large amount, and requires much less effort per unit hashing power to keep cool. Additionally finding profitable things to do with small amounts of waste heat is easy and distributed all over the planet - heating houses, water tanks, greenhouses, etc. As for international relations, restricting access to chip fabrication facilities is a very touchy subject due to how it can make or break economies, and especially militaries. (but that's a hopeful view)
Solving problem #1 and getting rid of pools is probably possible - Andrew Miller came up with the idea of a non-outsourceable puzzle. While tricky to implement, the basic idea is simple: make it possible for whomever finds the block to steal the reward, even after the fact, in a way that doesn't make it possible to prove any specific miner did it. Adding this protection to Bitcoin requires a hard-fork as described, though perhaps there's a similar idea that can be done as a soft-fork. Block withholding attacks - where miners simply don't submit valid solutions - could also achieve the same goal, although in a far uglier way.
Solving problem #2 and letting miners achieve low varience even with a small amount of hashing power is also possible - p2pool does it already, and tree chains would do it as a side effect. However p2pool is itself just another type of pool, so if non-outsourceable puzzles are implemented they'll need to be compatible. p2pool in its current form is also less then ideal - it does need a lot of bandwidth, and if you have lower latency than average you have a significant unfair advantage. But these are problems that (probably) can be fixed before adding it to the protocol. (this can be done in a soft-fork)
Do I still think Bitcoin will succeed in the long run? Yes, but I'm a lot less sure of it than I used to be. I'm also very skeptical that any of the above will be implemented without a clear failure of the system happening first - there's just too many people, miners, developers, merchants, etc. whose heads are in the sand, or even for that matter, actively making the problem worse. If that failure happens it's quite likely that the Bitcoin price will drop to essentially nothing - not a good way to start a few months of work fixing the problem when my expenses are denominated in Canadian dollars. I hope I'm on the wrong side of history here, but I'm a cautious guy and selling a significant chunk of bitcoins is just playing it safe; I'm not rich.
BTW If you owe me fiat and normally pay me via Bitcoin, for the next 2.5 weeks you can pay me based on the price I sold at, $650 CAD.
submitted by petertodd to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

Peerbet.org Now Accepts Litecoins!

Hey Everyone,
Many of you already know us so I will skip to the important part: We just implemented LITECOINS to Peerbet. Currently you can play with LTC on the Wheels. It is still in somewhat of a trial mode, so deposit/withdrawal delays could be expected in the next few days. If everything goes well, we will also add it to Raffles, and to Bit777, and we will also add Namecoins and Peercoins!
For those who don't:
We are happy to inform you about the release of Peerbet 2.0! The much anticipated release includes a few key features!
Peerbet.org - the first online gambling platform with zero house edge and without negative profit expected value for the players! It is really free: players compete against each other, not against the gambling site and there are no hidden costs or commissions. 100% of the revenue comes through ads.
In any casino or online gambling site like Just-Dice with non-zero house edge players will always lose playing long term, but in the truely zero-sum game (i.e. where no house edge or any other commission fees applied) players will NOT lose anything playing infinite long.
We offer raffle-style game in which users can create rounds with an arbitrary number of tickets (from 2 tickets to 10 million) and the price for a single one (from 1 Satoshi). This allows to choose any winning odds and profit expectation. When a game is created, players can start buying tickets and the game will be complete when all tickets sold and next Bitcoin block generated.
Peerbet is provably fair. When a game is created, we generate a random nonce and publish its SHA-1 hash. When this game is complete (all bets are made), we wait for the next Bitcoin block, and then concatenate its hash with the nonce's plaintext and use this value to determine the winner. This approach lets you to ensure that the Peerbet operator cannot possibly change the outcome of the game before it completes, or even to know its results ahead of time.
We store wallet with all funds off-site on the encrypted HDD and have its backup copy. Every 24 hours we perform backup of the database. Even if the server will be hacked, no funds will be lost. White hat hackers are welcome to check security of the server and report any vulnerabilities to me.
Good luck playing! https://peerbet.org
Peerbet is being owned and operated by Bit777!
submitted by bit777 to litecoin [link] [comments]

Peerbet.org Now Accepts Namecoin!

Hey Everyone,
Many of you already know us so I will skip to the important part: We just implemented Litecoins, Namecoins, Peercoins, and Primecoins to Peerbet. Currently you can play with all these currencies on the Wheels. It is still in somewhat of a trial mode, so deposit/withdrawal delays could be expected in the next few days. If everything goes well, we will also add it to Raffles, and to Bit777.
For those who don't:
We are happy to inform you about the release of Peerbet 2.0! The much anticipated release includes a few key features!
Peerbet.org - the first online gambling platform with zero house edge and without negative profit expected value for the players! It is really free: players compete against each other, not against the gambling site and there are no hidden costs or commissions. 100% of the revenue comes through ads.
In any casino or online gambling site like Just-Dice with non-zero house edge players will always lose playing long term, but in the truely zero-sum game (i.e. where no house edge or any other commission fees applied) players will NOT lose anything playing infinite long.
We offer raffle-style game in which users can create rounds with an arbitrary number of tickets (from 2 tickets to 10 million) and the price for a single one (from 1 Satoshi). This allows to choose any winning odds and profit expectation. When a game is created, players can start buying tickets and the game will be complete when all tickets sold and next Bitcoin block generated.
Peerbet is provably fair. When a game is created, we generate a random nonce and publish its SHA-1 hash. When this game is complete (all bets are made), we wait for the next Bitcoin block, and then concatenate its hash with the nonce's plaintext and use this value to determine the winner. This approach lets you to ensure that the Peerbet operator cannot possibly change the outcome of the game before it completes, or even to know its results ahead of time.
We store wallet with all funds off-site on the encrypted HDD and have its backup copy. Every 24 hours we perform backup of the database. Even if the server will be hacked, no funds will be lost. White hat hackers are welcome to check security of the server and report any vulnerabilities to me.
Good luck playing! https://peerbet.org
Peerbet is being owned and operated by Bit777!
submitted by bit777 to Namecoin [link] [comments]

Peerbet 2.0 Released! * No House Edge Raffles * 5 Wheels of Fortune! * Come & Play!

Dear members,
We are happy to inform you about the release of Peerbet 2.0! The much anticipated release includes a few key features!
Peerbet.org - the first online gambling platform with zero house edge and without negative profit expected value for the players! It is really free: players compete against each other, not against the gambling site and there are no hidden costs or commissions. 100% of the revenue comes through ads.
In any casino or online gambling site like Just-Dice with non-zero house edge players will always lose playing long term, but in the truely zero-sum game (i.e. where no house edge or any other commission fees applied) players will NOT lose anything playing infinite long.
We offer raffle-style game in which users can create rounds with an arbitrary number of tickets (from 2 tickets to 10 million) and the price for a single one (from 1 Satoshi). This allows to choose any winning odds and profit expectation. When a game is created, players can start buying tickets and the game will be complete when all tickets sold and next Bitcoin block generated.
Peerbet is provably fair. When a game is created, we generate a random nonce and publish its SHA-1 hash. When this game is complete (all bets are made), we wait for the next Bitcoin block, and then concatenate its hash with the nonce's plaintext and use this value to determine the winner. This approach lets you to ensure that the Peerbet operator cannot possibly change the outcome of the game before it completes, or even to know its results ahead of time.
We store wallet with all funds off-site on the encrypted HDD and have its backup copy. Every 24 hours we perform backup of the database. Even if the server will be hacked, no funds will be lost. White hat hackers are welcome to check security of the server and report any vulnerabilities to me.
Good luck playing! https://peerbet.org
Note: Our Wheel game does have house edge. It is only the Raffles that don't.
submitted by bit777 to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

Peerbet.org Now Accepts Peercoin!

Hey Everyone,
Many of you already know us so I will skip to the important part: We just implemented Litecoins, Namecoins, Peercoins, and Primecoins to Peerbet. Currently you can play with all these currencies on the Wheels. It is still in somewhat of a trial mode, so deposit/withdrawal delays could be expected in the next few days. If everything goes well, we will also add it to Raffles, and to Bit777.
For those who don't:
We are happy to inform you about the release of Peerbet 2.0! The much anticipated release includes a few key features!
Peerbet.org - the first online gambling platform with zero house edge and without negative profit expected value for the players! It is really free: players compete against each other, not against the gambling site and there are no hidden costs or commissions. 100% of the revenue comes through ads.
In any casino or online gambling site like Just-Dice with non-zero house edge players will always lose playing long term, but in the truely zero-sum game (i.e. where no house edge or any other commission fees applied) players will NOT lose anything playing infinite long.
We offer raffle-style game in which users can create rounds with an arbitrary number of tickets (from 2 tickets to 10 million) and the price for a single one (from 1 Satoshi). This allows to choose any winning odds and profit expectation. When a game is created, players can start buying tickets and the game will be complete when all tickets sold and next Bitcoin block generated.
Peerbet is provably fair. When a game is created, we generate a random nonce and publish its SHA-1 hash. When this game is complete (all bets are made), we wait for the next Bitcoin block, and then concatenate its hash with the nonce's plaintext and use this value to determine the winner. This approach lets you to ensure that the Peerbet operator cannot possibly change the outcome of the game before it completes, or even to know its results ahead of time.
We store wallet with all funds off-site on the encrypted HDD and have its backup copy. Every 24 hours we perform backup of the database. Even if the server will be hacked, no funds will be lost. White hat hackers are welcome to check security of the server and report any vulnerabilities to me.
Good luck playing! https://peerbet.org
Peerbet is being owned and operated by Bit777!
submitted by bit777 to peercoin [link] [comments]

Peerbet.org Now Accepts LTC/PPC/NMC/XPM and of course BTC

Hey Everyone,
Many of you already know us so I will skip to the important part: We just implemented Litecoins, Namecoins, Peercoins, and Primecoins to Peerbet. Currently you can play with all these currencies on the Wheels. It is still in somewhat of a trial mode, so deposit/withdrawal delays could be expected in the next few days. If everything goes well, we will also add it to Raffles, and to Bit777.
For those who don't:
We are happy to inform you about the release of Peerbet 2.0! The much anticipated release includes a few key features!
Peerbet.org - the first online gambling platform with zero house edge and without negative profit expected value for the players! It is really free: players compete against each other, not against the gambling site and there are no hidden costs or commissions. 100% of the revenue comes through ads.
In any casino or online gambling site like Just-Dice with non-zero house edge players will always lose playing long term, but in the truely zero-sum game (i.e. where no house edge or any other commission fees applied) players will NOT lose anything playing infinite long.
We offer raffle-style game in which users can create rounds with an arbitrary number of tickets (from 2 tickets to 10 million) and the price for a single one (from 1 Satoshi). This allows to choose any winning odds and profit expectation. When a game is created, players can start buying tickets and the game will be complete when all tickets sold and next Bitcoin block generated.
Peerbet is provably fair. When a game is created, we generate a random nonce and publish its SHA-1 hash. When this game is complete (all bets are made), we wait for the next Bitcoin block, and then concatenate its hash with the nonce's plaintext and use this value to determine the winner. This approach lets you to ensure that the Peerbet operator cannot possibly change the outcome of the game before it completes, or even to know its results ahead of time.
We store wallet with all funds off-site on the encrypted HDD and have its backup copy. Every 24 hours we perform backup of the database. Even if the server will be hacked, no funds will be lost. White hat hackers are welcome to check security of the server and report any vulnerabilities to me.
Good luck playing! https://peerbet.org
Peerbet is being owned and operated by Bit777!
submitted by bit777 to CryptoCurrency [link] [comments]

Peerbet.org now accepts Primecoins!

Hey Everyone,
Many of you already know us so I will skip to the important part: We just implemented Litecoins, Namecoins, Peercoins, and Primecoins to Peerbet. Currently you can play with all these currencies on the Wheels. It is still in somewhat of a trial mode, so deposit/withdrawal delays could be expected in the next few days. If everything goes well, we will also add it to Raffles, and to Bit777.
For those who don't:
We are happy to inform you about the release of Peerbet 2.0! The much anticipated release includes a few key features!
Peerbet.org - the first online gambling platform with zero house edge and without negative profit expected value for the players! It is really free: players compete against each other, not against the gambling site and there are no hidden costs or commissions. 100% of the revenue comes through ads.
In any casino or online gambling site like Just-Dice with non-zero house edge players will always lose playing long term, but in the truely zero-sum game (i.e. where no house edge or any other commission fees applied) players will NOT lose anything playing infinite long.
We offer raffle-style game in which users can create rounds with an arbitrary number of tickets (from 2 tickets to 10 million) and the price for a single one (from 1 Satoshi). This allows to choose any winning odds and profit expectation. When a game is created, players can start buying tickets and the game will be complete when all tickets sold and next Bitcoin block generated.
Peerbet is provably fair. When a game is created, we generate a random nonce and publish its SHA-1 hash. When this game is complete (all bets are made), we wait for the next Bitcoin block, and then concatenate its hash with the nonce's plaintext and use this value to determine the winner. This approach lets you to ensure that the Peerbet operator cannot possibly change the outcome of the game before it completes, or even to know its results ahead of time.
We store wallet with all funds off-site on the encrypted HDD and have its backup copy. Every 24 hours we perform backup of the database. Even if the server will be hacked, no funds will be lost. White hat hackers are welcome to check security of the server and report any vulnerabilities to me.
Good luck playing! https://peerbet.org
Peerbet is being owned and operated by Bit777!
submitted by bit777 to primecoin [link] [comments]

PeerDice.org Launches! 1st in the World 0.3% House Edge, Multiplayer Dice! [Upvote for Visibility]

Dear Bitcoiners,
We are happy to announce the release of https://PeerDice.org! The 1st in the world Multi-Player Dice game, with the lowest house edge on Earth! Just 0.3%! Win Unlimited amounts!
Q. How do I play PeerDice? A. Each user can place any amount of bets for each game. Each bet consists of a number (e.g. 66.7978) and bet value (e.g. 0.1 BTC). Users have the option to use random numbers by choosing exact or random from the dropdown menu next to the bet field. By choosing the Random option, each user can select his desired range, out of which the system will draw the random number.
Users can choose if they want to play indefinitely or limit their play by using the minimum/maximum balance limits or the maximum rolls limit.
Every second a new game starts with a new number drawn.
The winner is the person that has a number closest to the number drawn. The winner wins all bets of all other players minus 0.3% house fee. In the rare circcumstances where there might be more than 1 bet with the same number and it wins, the winnings are split.
Q. Can there be more than 1 winner? A. Yes! There can be as many winners as the actual active players in the game. This happens when a lot of people are playing, and each of them has different bet values. We have designed our game to be similar to poker. Whenever the winner's bet is smaller than other players' bets, these players fight against each other on their own with their respective number selections.
Q. What happens if there is only one player per currency/coin? A. We need at least 2 players per currency/coin to roll the dice, with at least 1 bet from each player. The dice will not be rolled until a 2nd player comes.
Q. Is it provably fair? How do you draw the number? A. Yes, of course. When you place your bet, you also input your client seed. When the draw begins, the system uses all client seeds + the bet ids of all players to produce a SHA256 seed. The hash is then used in our RNG as a starting value to determine the Roll outcome. This way everyone is partially involved in determining the outcome and a single player or the house cannot affect it in any way.
Q. Once I start the game, how do I stop or pause it? A. Click on the 'Active Bets' tab. There you have options to pause or cancel each or all of your ongoing bets.
Q. How can I manage my placed bets? A. You can manage your placed bets, by clicking on the 'Active Bets' tab and choosing one of the options in the 'Actions' menu.
symbol - Clicking on this symbol activates your bet for the following games. II symbol - By clicking on this symbol, you will pause the bet. X symbol - Deletes the placed bet forever. 
Example situations Users A, B & C have bets for different values: User A = 1btc bet, User B = 0.5btc bet, User C = 0.5btc bet - Example A: User A wins. User A receives 0.5btc refund + his actual win: 0.5btc (his stake) + 0.5btc from user B + 0.5btc from user C x 0.997% = 1.9955btc - Example B: User B wins. User A receives 0.5btc refund, since User B's stake is 0.5btc. User B receives 0.5 btc (his stake) + 0.5btc from user A + 0.5btc from User C * 0.997% = 1.4955btc
Situations with more than 1 bet:
User A has 3 bets with different values: Bet 1 = 0.1btc, Bet 2 = 0.5btc, Bet 3 = 0.7btc. User B has 2 bets for 1btc and 0.5btc. - Example A: User A's Bet 1 wins. User A receives 0.4 + 0.6 refunds from Bet 2 & 3, User B receives 0.9 & 0.4 refunds from his two bets. User A receives 0.1 (his stake) + 0.4 (from the 4 competing bets) * 0.997% = 0.4985btc win - Example B: User B wins the 0.5btc bet. User A receives 0.2btc refund. User B receives 0.5btc refund. User B receives 0.1btc + 0.5btc + 0.5btc (from User A) + 0.5btc + 0.5btc (from his 2 stakes) * 0.997% = 2.0937btc win
More than 1 winner:
User A has a bet of 0.5btc. User B has a bet of 1btc. User C has a bet of 3btc. User D has a bet of 1.5btc.
Users A & D win and need to split the profit. User A receives: 0.5btc + 0.5btc + 0.5btc + 0.5btc * 0.997% = 1.994btc /2 (2 winners) = 0.997btc User B loses his bet User C receives a refund of 1.5btc and loses 1.5btc User D receives: 0.5btc + 0.5btc + 0.5btc + 0.5btc * 0.997% = 1.994btc /2 (2 winners) = 0.997btc from the initial bet and the user also receives: 0.5btc (the remainder of User B) + 1btc (user C) + 1btc (the remainder of his own bet) * 0.997% = 2.4925btc. His total win is 0.997btc + 2.4925btc 3.4895btc 
Q. What do payout color indications mean? A. We use the following colors to mark the results of each game: Green - You won more than your total bet(s) value. Red - Your payout is less than your total bet(s) value. Silver (default) - You havent played for current roll.
submitted by bit777 to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

HashFlare $200 Bitcoin Cloud Mining Investment & Payout Update  India HashOcean - HashOcean Responds, Cites a Hack, Ready to Resume Usual Payout HashMonster Payout Proof NiceHASH Payout update and Q&A BitHammer SCAM, Quantum Hash Payout!!!

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HashFlare $200 Bitcoin Cloud Mining Investment & Payout Update India

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